Wisdom 2 0 | Emergence
Loving Awareness, Relationships, & Technology. Jack Kornfield and Yung Pueblo (Diego Perez) interviewed by Cecily Mak
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Foreign [Music] [Laughter] [Applause] Something I'm very much looking forward To speaking with both of you about one Of my favorite topics and you've both Raised it in your work is the nature of Relationships personal intimate Relationships And your practice and Diego I know you You write so generously on this topic And so many around the world can just Open one of your books or your feed and Feel like what you write is speaking to Them You relate to us in such an incredible Way And Jack you've also been very generous And open in your many many years of Offering your wisdom and teachings in Some of your own humbling moments and in Relationship and the role that practice Theater did not have in preparing us I Might take the liberty of reading I Didn't know if I was going to do this But I'm going to read a couple sentences From From Jax a path of heart And then I'd love to just take a few Minutes and hear you both reflect on Relationships and how how they're Impacted by the Dharma So Jack you just come back from from
Your Journeys abroad and you're a monk And you're right But alas when I returned to the United States as a monk all of it kind of fell Apart I just robed I enrolled in graduate School Got a job driving a taxi and worked Nights at a mental hospital in Boston I also became involved in an intimate Relationship Although I had arrived back from the Monastery clear spacious and high in Short order I discovered through my Relationship in the communal household Where I lived and in my graduate work That my meditation had helped me very Little with my human relationships I was still emotionally immature acting Out the same painful patterns of blame And fear acceptance and rejection that I Had before my Buddhist training only the Horror now was that I was beginning to See these patterns more clearly Thank you for being honest with us It's beautiful so They're not unrelated right I mean Having a having a deep practice and and Working on your own healing Inevitably prepares us for the intimacy That can bring more the same but what Have you I'll start with you jack what Have you learned since you wrote this Decades ago how does your practice help
I know you have a you have a lot of Special relations I will say a few Things first of all I'm in a really Wonderful loving relationship with Trudy Goodman my beloved my wife my partner For the last Decade or 12 years it's Fabulous As You Are With Thorin thank you Jack And it's really gorgeous to watch I'm Not sure I'm allowed to say it but it's Really fun to see them but we did Yeah now you're out out of the closet Right and they they're wonderful Together so we're all supporting good Relationships One of the things that's important to Understand it does as Diego points out It really helps to have time where you Quiet the mind and tend the heart and Listen and our relationships mirror what We learned in relationships in our Families and mine was a pretty painful Family and so we don't know how to do it And then you think that if you get good At one area it will carry over in Another but it doesn't work that way Awareness doesn't automatically carry so There's people that go to the Dalai Lama And I love him he's like the finest Human being there is and they'll ask him Questions about marriage or giving birth To a child it's like the Dalai Lama has Never been buried he never had a kid you
Know you're asking the wrong person So we have it turns out that we have to Actually Direct the same mindful loving awareness That we give to our breath our body and Meditation or our own mind then we have To turn it and deliberately listen to Each other and say the skills of loving Awareness and attention and you know or Self-compassion now I have to bring to That person that I'm with I have to Listen in the same respectful Non-judgmental way I have to accept them Just as I have to accept these things And myself of course I can change but When I've done weddings for people one Of the things that and I used to do them I would do during the ceremony is I Would say you know when you go to a used Car lot To buy a car there's a sign in the Window in many of these cars that will Say as is And I say you know you may have all These fantasies about this relationship To come but I want you to really look at Each other are you willing to marry this Person as is and love them You know And what I've learned is meditation Therapy you know Good Friends Community Making mistakes and then trying to sort Them out communication Relationship takes all of the above as
You know but it also is the place that We learn to love And what else is more important yeah Um I mean it was My wife and I we had been together for About six years before we started Meditating and during those six years it Was clear that we had a very deep Connection there were a few times where We almost broke up but our connection Was so strong that it kept pulling us Back in But that whole first part of our Relationship it was like living in a Hurricane It was quite chaotic there was if you Were to add together how much emotional Maturity the two of us had you would get A total of zero And and it was it was quite difficult But when we started meditating Um Ever so slowly there were tiny amounts Of Harmony that started entering into Our lives and I think particularly Understanding selflessness Um understanding that yes right we're Here we're individuals we're having a Conversation but ultimately what's What's really here it's just Ever Changing phenomenon it's just minded Matter moving at incredibly rapid speeds It helps you let go of some of that ego Specifically for those moments when
Arguments happen right because that First half of our relationship we would Argue and each of us would try to win we Would try to win the argument and like Jack says nobody wins in a war right Like so we'd both immediately lose Um but now we try to do our best to just Understand you know conflict is arising Anger may be arising something you know This feeling of being upset is there but Let me just take a step back and still Try to appreciate your perspective and In both of us trying to appreciate each Other's perspective we actually learned That if I appreciate her perspective it Actually doesn't negate my own we're Just understanding each other in this Moment and In that ability to understand each other We can actually find a new middle path Where we can then move forward and try To Act in better ways Um but I I really am Profoundly grateful to the dhamma Because I think my connection with my Wife would have never matured if it Weren't for me personally building my Awareness of myself my own traumas my Own conditioning the way that I would Just constantly be reacting that little Bit of equanimity can make such a Difference because it allows you to let Some love through I love that in the
Buddhist teaching You know there is this elimination of Craving which helps you eliminate all of That heavy load all this mental Conditioning but then what's left over There's there's Meta there's loving kindness there's Sympathetic Joy there's compassion and Then there's Equanimity so to be able to Give your partner your best it takes Mental training you have to sort of sort Of just teach yourself very Intentionally using that practice and Like Jack said then taking that practice Into your everyday life and just Trying again trying again trying again And that's what we ended up doing and Now we've been together for 15 years and You know we still don't agree on Everything but it's beautiful because we Take that as an opportunity to practice Yeah like let's see how we can handle This one and uh and so we don't always Get it right you know we're imperfect People just like everybody else but it Has really been a true Joy learning how To navigate the storms together and to Be able to support each other when Because like you know if you're a Serious meditator a lot of these Meditations Um their purification techniques so deep Stuff is going to come up right a lot of Us don't meditate necessarily in
Traditions that just aim towards bliss Now we meditate to clean out the mind And when you're cleaning out the mind It's not every day is not going to be a Pretty day Some days will be a little heavier than Others and to let each other know You know we'll wake up and we'll let Each other know our emotional barometer And be like you know like I don't feel That good today I woke up and I just I Feel sad or I feel upset all right you Know I'll feel something heavy that's Passing through and being in sort of That pretty consistent communication Allows us to just step up for each other Or if we both feel down we'll just take It slow that day and do as best as we Can but not judge ourselves as we're Moving through the storm yeah but um I Think the practice has been just Absolutely critical in allowing us to Know ourselves and thus be able to love Each other better wonderful that you Share your journey and how you've come To where you are and Able to birth what you offer Um one thing that Came up in reflecting on today and just Thinking about this was how I know you Are so committed to your practice you And your wife Sarah are just I love this example you give about you You set your year out based on when
You're going to be on Retreat and I know That you just emerged yourself from a 45-day vipassana retreat I believe Um which is beautiful in and of itself One of the guests was asking earlier How how does somebody who doesn't have 45 days to go on a vipassana retreat Because of their life circumstances or Tolerance or appetite or whatever it Might be how how do we start small or How do we use small Snippets of practice And this is really a question for both Of you yeah how do we adapt To what we can commit to and what we can Do for our own healing in whatever type Of role or life circumstances we find Ourselves in I think that's something that is it's Really personal right we have to sort of Take a good look at what our capacity Level is like not just in our life and You know the different responsibilities That we have but we also have to take Into account our own conditioning our Own trauma and finding sort of that Sweet spot where it's something that is Challenging but at the same time not Overwhelming you don't want to bring up So many things that then you run away From the inward process you don't know You no longer want to reflect or get to Know yourself because you are horrified By what's inside of you yeah but you Want to find that sweet spot so that you
Can continue taking sustainable steps Inward and start doing that liberational Work and I think that's it's beautiful I Mean Jack was just talking about Cloud Sangha that sounds something that it Sounds very accessible and there's so Many different entry points that are Available into your own internal Landscape now and it's not just about You know being able to do A 45-day course or a 10-day meditation Course if you can I highly advise that You go do it but if you can't totally Reasonable and you can still find Different techniques and practices that Can help you start developing your Equanimity start developing your sense Of awareness and developing your Compassion and that's what's important Is if you do what you can then we're all Better off including yourself so Mm-hmm and Jack yeah Um thank you Diego that was that's Beautiful we are all better off it's Like take not Hans uh expression where He said when the crowded Vietnamese Refugee boats met with storms or Pirates If everyone panicked all would be lost But if even one person on the boat Remained steady and calm it was enough It showed the way for everyone to Survive and then you say well who is That person and as Miss Piggy would say Moi you know it turns out that you can
Be that person you become that person so Here's a few things to add to what you Said so beautifully Diego one is you can Start small as you said and I'll give You an example of a really small cause Meng our dear friend who helped start Search inside yourself leadership did a Teaching for people in Ukraine last week Just before I did Um And there's so much trauma and so hard For people close your eyes and go into Your body it's just caring so much He taught micro meditations one mindful Breath how is that Three mindful breaths or if you can't Sit because you're carrying the grief or Something difficult in your life do Walking meditation practice There are very simple steady and Grounding things and in a minute I'm the Neuroscience Richie was here Richie Davidson it in even 60 seconds you start To re-regulate your nervous system and You also be come to a place where you Can see with greater Clarity so so There's there's that one is making it Simple the second is the incredible need For Community the ACT we're such an Individualistic nation and the idea that You're supposed to meditate on your own You know yeah if you can you can have Sex on your own too it's all right But it's kind of better with other
People for the most part you know and we Need we really need Community whether it Is a meditation body who you set your Alarm and sit with every day or three Times a week whether it's Cloud Sangha Or some other thing where you join we Actually and and traditionally where It's taught wherever two or more are Gathered in his name whether it's Satsang or a Sangha or Minion or we need To support each other because and in our Culture our Speedy consumer look at your Calendar culture You really we need each other and so That becomes something that you can Somehow build into in a deep way to to Help you sustain your practice and I forget the third thing so this is you Know
