We hope you enjoyed this session at Wisdom 2.0.
Sign up for the free Weekly Wisdom News Inner Journey Newsletter:
Check out our online and in-person events at Wisdom 2.0:
Join our Online Practice Community (Pay What You Can)
Foreign [Music] Welcome everyone while we uh allow a few Minutes for other people to zoom in if You want to say hello in the chat maybe Just where you're calling in from uh We can kind of get a sense of who's Who's here and who's in the room So excited to have Jack and Trudy Miami Is here Kuwait is in the House Phoenix Texas New Zealand awesome Oregon North Dakota Maui several organs Uh yeah I wonder what time it is in Kuwait I know Germany Santa Cruz New Jersey Kansas City Wales Italy Italian okay Ann Arbor Iowa yay Okay one of the things that we probably Know is regardless of nationality or Regardless of um language uh Relationships they're the common Language of relationships that either Work or don't work uh throughout Throughout every culture and every um Every people in my Bernese mountain dog Is very active right now I'll just give her a little excited About the relationship time yeah Um so first of all my name is Soren and Just want to welcome you all here And Cecily and uh we are hosting this Series on relationships this is probably One of the most both interesting but
Also potentially kind of like scary Topics for people to talk about and I'm So excited that we're here with uh Jack Cornfield and Trudy Goodman just to have An open honest learning about this whole Dynamic of relationships uh as you most Of you probably know you've read studies And have seen like the quality of our Relationships like greatly impact our Health our longevity our happiness so We're here to learn together and share Some together just so you know the Format uh Cecilia will interview Jack And Trudy uh for 30 40 minutes and then We'll open it up for questions so if you Have a question kind of be thinking About that and there'll be a way to Raise your hand a little bit later on There's a reaction button below you can Raise your hand and you can um ask a Question just know that this is being Filmed and everyone will hear your Questions your question so just note That uh this is a this is a um a public Session so however that impacts your Question you can always say that you're You're asking on behalf of a friend Should you wish but um we just want you To know that it's being filmed so thank You again for coming it's a great honor To be here I'm going to pass it over to Cecily yeah Wonderful to The group
Judy thank you both so much for joining Us we'll pass it to you in a moment but I just want to share a little bit of Context about this when Soren and I First started seeding our relationship When we were in those really early kind Of fun vibrant weeks and months before Things got so difficult it was so hard Now so hard anyway Um we were talking about how do we be Intentional about how we evolve our Relationship how do we make sure we Don't repeat some of the patterns that We've had in previous ones beginning Middle and end and one of the ideas we Had was to think of the people we have In our Lives who really Inspire us as Human beings or in relationship or in Any kind of a influential capacity or Inspiring capacity and we thought we Should interview people who have really Amazing relationships or seeming to be Live living away or thriving in a way That we embody ourselves as we go down This path and so we started compiling a Little list and thinking we're going to Interview these people we're going to See we can learn and kind of pull this Together and be thoughtful about how we Grow and of course Jack and Trudy were At the very top of that list and we've Been able to spend some time with you Too obviously in much more intimate Settings than this but this is actually
Kind of the completion of a of a cycle That started a while ago when when we Were envisioning this is something just For us and it's actually really amazing To share it with all of you so this is Kind of a live expression of a dream That Sora and I have had for a while Many if not all of you know Jack and Trudy to be deeply inspiring during our Teachers and leaders and entrepreneurs And Founders and activists and space Holders and maybe formerly taxi drivers And couples therapists and all the Amazing things that you've done to get To where you are now Um but we're just really looking forward To having a fun conversation and sharing It with all of our guests from around The planet it's amazing So to kick us off and we have way more Questions so we're going to get to but We'll do our best Um to kick us off please tell us a Little bit about you two and your Journey and how you arrived here Together we know you're in different Cities today but tell us a little bit About your path and you Foreign I think it was 1973 or four Uh a long long time ago before many of You were born actually and uh I was Studying with the Koreans and teacher he
Was my first teacher and I was so Jack Came to have some exchange with this Teacher and I was so I was blown away by His self-confidence and how he just I was so shy and I was so unconfident in Those days and Jack was just coming back With all these answers and having this Intense dialogue with the teacher so I Noticed him and then he began to teach I Think I was at the second uh Retreat That Jack ever taught in Great Barrington Massachusetts along with Ron Das and John cavison and Larry Rosenberg Lots of friends were there Um and Over the years you know our lives kind Of intersected he wasn't a main teacher For me after that those first Retreats But let me say he was a great teacher Even back then a really good teacher Um and it wasn't until I moved to California around 20 years ago 21 years Ago Um that we really reconnected and Again I actually learned to teach Vipassana I was a zen teacher before and Jack Um was my mentor for that and we began To teach together and one thing led to Another and We just we had this sort of on the same Wavelength connection and I was had been Single for a long time and I'll tell I'll let Jack tell his part but I was
Really really blown away and just so Surprised to find another love great Love of my life I never expected that at This stage of life And I'm so happy and lucky And Trudy tells me I'm her best husband Yet You're my favorite of all Oh yeah beautiful so first I love them All by the way So first to say Um we're really having fun and it's Never too late I mean you know we Started in our uh mid 60s and uh I was Getting divorced and ending a long Marriage and relationship Um and yeah I just want to encourage you All it's never too late to start again Um and when Trudy came out to California I'd known her because we had many many Common friends and we'd practice Together in different ways Um And she began to do the training and Mindfulness and vipassana inside Meditation She came part of that was to sit in on The meetings that I have the personal Meetings with students during Retreats Which is the format of our retreats and She would sit in and I would do the kind Of guided meditations and Exploration With students to help them open wherever They were to accept and open law and so
Forth And I just loved her being there because Her 30 Years background as a therapist along With her 30 years or more of Zen Practice she saw everything I was doing And commented on it and I felt oh this Is a kindred spirit I felt so understood It was really fantastic and Um I was you know getting out of a Relationship this long marriage and um Trudy thought I think quite rightfully That I should take some time take a Pause maybe go out and date a lot of People you know Um have a lot of flings or whatever that I was not really ready to do in other Relationships So I tried it because I was I was quite Enamored Trudy Um and I thought like who do I want to Be with he said no no you're radioactive You've got to do something else so I Went on a few dates but I found myself Calling her on the way home from the car To tell her how it away And so we've just had this had this Loving connection since then And um What do you think helps make this such a Loving connection not every relationship Has its lessons and bow to all of our Former partners and and of course
Everything has its kind of role and Purpose Um but what do you think made this Particularly what it is now and was There certain changes you had to go Through we're like wow I need to do this To be ready for a Jack or a Trudy or I Need to kind of like Address this childhood pain I had or or Was it just kind of like the moment Arrived and you found each other and it Was the right Bond at the right time I Think both and soaring yeah for me it Was really both because I had done so I Mean honestly as a Pharma student I've done so much work on Myself I mean Sometimes I felt like it was all work And no play you know that's just so much Of what I did and yet so and also Um I had had A couple husbands well actually Actually technically three before so I Had learned some things over the course Of those relationships and I feel like That's unusual like usually people Aren't the age that we are when they're Getting together you know and and they They haven't really necessarily Understood the role of their childhood Attachments and how their relationship Behaviors and all of those things that You really can benefit so much from both
Meditation and Psychotherapy the Synergy Is so powerful really Um of learning to look within and take Responsibility for all of who you are But at the same time learning Um your relationship issues and styles And stances in relationship with a Therapist is just so helpful so I had Really done that and I felt I'd also Been single for 10 years wow I I have Had as I have mentioned multiple uh Marriages but I've also needed almost 10 Years to recover in between Um was there was there something in Particular you noticed that was playing Out they're like oh wow or was it a Right and okay yeah so what happened is I thought I'm gonna really try something New Jack was not my type my type was More like a kind of charming alcoholic Type Really you know fun and anyway Um Jack was not Japanese come on Jack was addicted to anything it was Like Army and all that stuff yeah No he just wasn't you know he was like You know I'm not going to talk about What he was like I'm just going to talk About my feelings for him which were This is this is the man who's different And this is the man who will not betray Me and this is a man who tells the truth You know Um
You know kids can always tell what Somebody's like on the inside Um they just have sonar for that and I Felt like Any child with Jack would also sense That he is who he appears to be he is Who he advertises himself to be as a Teacher and I saw that and that to me Was so important the connection and that He it was Um integrated you know that who he is as A man was integrated with all those Years of study and practice and that is Not always the case even with Dharma Teachers Anything you needed to go through or Realize or Or whatever I mean in right person or so There are a few things first part of What I think helped make it work well is That we were mature and seasoned in a Way we'd been through a lot Um and also I I didn't come into the Relationship in a needy way which I'd Had in previous relationships where I Thought the other person was supposed to Fulfill me and my really early child or Not really early but my childhood Um and teenage conditioning which led Into the marriage I had before to Describe it my twin brother was a lot Bigger he was on the football team he Was this King in The King and I School Play of the high school of thousands of
People I played oboe in the orchestra I Was a nerd and my And my self-image oh okay I'm sort of Smart I can do stuff but I didn't really Feel myself to be worthy or desirable Very much and so I was always looking For someone ready to complete me in some Way By the time we got together I had seen That more I had to sort of revise my View of myself because it lasted Surprisingly for a really long time and Then the other thing is that Trudy Really loved me the way that I am and I Was like Hallelujah I struck the jackpot When when I do when I do weddings which I used to do a bunch one of the things That I put in the ceremony is I tell People they're standing there that when You go to a car lot to buy a car a used Car there's often a sign in the window That says as is you know and I say all Right I want you to look at each other And before you take your vows do you Take this person as if rather than all The things and somehow we'd work through That so it was like I was finally ready To to love in a different way and be Loved yeah and be loved yeah that Changed a lot it's really great to be With someone who loves you yeah and and Be able to receive it that's beautiful Yeah um we have the advantage of having Spent an hour with a number of the
People on the zoom in the first session And There are a lot of members of this Community I think the wisdom Community Who struggle a bit in in personal Relationships around one common theme Which is one might have a strong Dharma Practice or commitment to Inner growth And self-awareness where the other Partner might not and I know you both Weathered Difficulty in relationships to get to Today and I know your wonderful guides And teachers to friends and family and Beyond Do you have anything to offer Advice or just counsel for anybody on This call who is in a not really Thriving relationship but they're trying To develop themselves and they're They're struggling with that maybe Disconnection between wanting to co Co-grow together Um but also maybe hesitant to end a Relationship and go through everything That's involved with that Oh yeah it's so a really easy question We thought no it's a heartbreaking thing To end relationship there's a lot in Your question Cecily but I'll just come To the first part which is you know what But when one person really starts on Let's say a meditation practice more Intensively or some maybe therapy or
Path of inner growth and the other Person hasn't and It's a question that comes up has been Coming up for decades and I remember Years ago uh being with my uh one of my Zen teachers my heart teacher Maureen Stewart roshi and somebody asked her What's it like for you and your husband Because here you are you know up to your Eyeballs and Zen and teaching and Practicing with everybody and and he Doesn't do that and she just said Typical Zen answer very brief she said One in a family is enough and I think That um The way that that can be true is it Depends on your partner often when we Begin a path of practice we you just Think I know this is true for me at the Beginning I just felt like I had Discovered something so precious and That I really wished I could share it Um But at the on the other hand I also Think there was a little bit of um for Me a little bit of almost Self-righteousness like I'm on this path And I'm growing and Um I remember there was a New Yorker Cartoon of a woman with this tiny little Man sitting on her lap and she says Henry I think I've outgrown our Relationship and you know you feel like That like you're the Giant and the other
Person is sort of like a spiritual Little person and Um If your partner is nice you know not Cruel or harsh but kind and loves you Maybe that's enough maybe you don't need To be on the exact same path but I Really feel like Um There's so much to share the more deeply Involved and immersed you get in your Practice or your therapy and then the Compassion and the love of an open heart You can love that person they don't have To be the same so that's what I would Say about that and Jack make room for You to talk A little Yeah I actually want to turn it a little bit Because you've said you've kind of Articulated what I would have said Trudy But one of the other things that that I've learned and it seems really Important and I'm still paying attention To when we when we do have differences Or conflict shocking but it could happen Anyway is um the the kind of listening Because there's a listening Make your case basically and to make Sure that that they know how you are and How what it should be and so forth or There's other kind of listening which is To really understand what's going on in
That other person and that makes an Enormous difference so that's part and And part of what Trudy was pointing to Is not judging also that we really are Different and often we're also attracted To people who are different than us and Then we judge them but but we have that Attraction it's weird and I'll give an Example early on in our relationship Um Trudy is more of a free spirit than I am And I'm a bit more organized in certain Ways than she is but anyway one of her Things that she does sometimes is like When we're ending the day and she'll Take off what she's been wearing she Just flings it on the floor she's ready To get in bed and she'll sing her Clothes on the floor Kind of like a teenager not exactly but It has a little of that flavor so I Noticed a bit of judgment coming in my Mind like let's you know hang them up or Whatever And then I turned it in my mind because I could feel that judgment come And I thought I am with a woman who Still has the spirit of a young girl you Know and how cool is that and fling away Baby this is great so I could see my own Programming and that I could actually Appreciate the the difference and also Underlying at the spirit that was there And it just made all the difference also
I put them away in the morning John Yes it reminds me I don't know if I Heard this where I heard this ROM death Story but there's supposedly somebody Came to round nothing with Rhonda Stories it's like I think they happen He's like well I'm thinking of leaving My relationship and he gives all the Reasons why I should what should I do Ramadath Ramada says it doesn't matter He's like no no it absolutely matters Because all these other reasons that it And Rob us is it doesn't matter and uh I Guess and the guy's like why do you keep Telling me it doesn't matter he's like The way that you're asking the question It sounds like you're going to suffer You know no matter which direction you Go because there was such drama around The thing and um and I do wonder about Like how do you decide what to bring up Because inevitably you wake up in the Morning one of you might say hadn't had Your coffee or had a hard night or Something there's something that's sad That just doesn't feel quite right and You can kind of think like I'm just Gonna have compassion for that partner You know because of the head whatever is Going on we all have stuff going on or When do you decide to bring something up And how do you bring that up it's like You know honey that hurt or where is That decision for both of you and how
Have you found to bring that up in a way That gets the best Um reception Well first of all I don't always bring It up in the way that gets the best Reception Um you know I tried to but In the Heat Of the Moment The tendency is to revert to sort of the Instinctual patterns that were installed In Us by our caregivers so sometimes That happens and I think I'm a little More impulsive than Jack that way Um he's maybe emotionally at least on The surface steadier Um I don't think anybody is deep down You know like that but he is steadier But I also feel like Um the way to approach it is to really Focus on how it landed in me and to Assume a good intention on my partner's Part And if I you know if we're willing to Sort of cut each other that slack and Assume that there's a good intention Even if the impact on me or the way it Landed wasn't good Um then I can say something like Starting with when you said that I felt This Um and maybe you know I know you didn't Mean to but it landed this way in me That kind so that there isn't that Blaming shaming energy
Um coming at the other person which will Naturally cause them to contract and Feel defensive Um And so often because of the gender Binary and patriarchy in our country It's you know the woman who is sort of Seeking connection and the man who is Distancing or shutting down or you know And and so I think having that um Assumption I don't know I used to say to Couples sometimes As an exercise if they were in a place To be able to do that Just go through one week and act as if You really love this person Because why are you together at some Point you did Yeah I'm just speak briefly if I feel That my heart gets closed Um that's the signal if I if I'm aware Of it that uh I need to say something or Really but there's stuff to let just let It go by and I have this cartoon that Someone sent me Um that says on the top Ruth Bader Ginsburg's marriage advice and it's sort Of a drawing of her and underneath she Says sometimes it helps in barrage to be A little deaf now I don't mean this as a Put down people who can't hear well I've Got my own hearing aids but I think what She's saying is Let things go by uh unless they touch
Something where it sticks and if it Feels like it's stuck so that we lose Our loving playful whatever creative Connection then that becomes a time to Say Um honey can we talk right right My friends um Jan suria Steve Bergman Wrote a book called we have to talk and In the beginning of the book I think it Was Steve talks about how when he would Hear Jan say to him we have honey we have to Talk he would be seized with relational Dread And I love that phrase Oh no oh no and then your heart Contracts like yeah But it's so sweet to be able to observe Your person and see what How they react I mean I I remember some Of our earlier Um witnessing of that in between us that Exact same thing happened a couple times Like surrender something we need to talk About and his reaction was like this Terror Should we cook for dinner when I guess And so it helps it kind of Open The Little Door like okay let's let's walk Through the store together and see so When we got together we we had a meeting With our therapists first very California and so our therapist got to Talk us through about what to understand
About the other person and that was one Thing that uh was expressed to you was That I have a hard time receiving Feedback and there's a whole reason why That is the case in part because I grew Up as Buddhist in Lubbock Texas and We're often criticized and told we're Going to hell and not really accepted so I kind of got this like armoring in me Of like I'm not going to listen to People because people tell me bad I Don't want to hear what they have to say Because they're telling me I'm going to Hell and I don't really don't want to Hear that are they telling me I can't do This I can't do that so part of my Identity has been I'm gonna do Regardless of what people say And it's a superpower in some ways but Get into relationship is not very Helpful so I've had to like look at that Pardon me because it's the hardest Things are the things that have served Us right and so that's been part of my Reaction it's like I'm I'm not inclined To hear what people say because I like To think that I'm gonna do stuff and and Uh there's a power like you know we're The three of us that created a venture Capital company which has to comes Together with a little bit of like You world we're gonna do this yeah But also it really helps to know that There's people who have feedback and so
That's been a big lesson for me yeah and That's creating creating wisdom Ventures For all of you who are listening you can Look it up is also a a relational hack And fortunately we're having a good time Doing it but I also want to say one of The questions you'd send to us is that Um for Trudy and I anyway we do take Space apart Um and we've learned in some way maybe Partly because we're contemplatives as Well that it's good for us sometimes we Have to negotiate One Wants More contact Than the other but Um that ability to also have some time That's really your own or for us for me Anyway allows me to come back more Loving and I remember working with a Couple at one point that was going Through a really terrible time and maybe Facing divorce and they came into my Office Um and you could feel the heat coming Off of them you know from the pain or The anger all that and I said well once We introduced I said can you get put Yourself yourself at the proper distance So that you can begin to talk about some Of these difficult things and the woman Stood up and went out the door so that Was the fair but then about 10 seconds Later the door opened again and you Could see her eye peeking in the crack She said I think this will do you know
But it was a funny moment I'm painful For them but at the same time it had Some intelligence in it that all right I Want to make this connection but first I Have to step back enough to feel that I'm safe or something like that and then Let's see if we can begin to reconnect Yeah you touch topic um we want to ask About actually which is this being apart A lot I mean even just as we're getting Ready to jump on the call you both are Teaching and hosting and doing doing Your work and your your expressions in The world into different places How do you how do you stay connected When you're apart do you mind and is it Okay to tell the partner wow I'm so Enjoying my time away from you The phrases that I've used is how can I Miss you if you never go away and it's It's like Old Country I don't know it's Hank Williams or how can I miss you if You're never gone or I forget the exact Phrase but Um Yeah like this weekend I have something At inside La that I need to be here for Jack is doing in-person things up north That he needs to be there for um And I think that we're pretty open about Telling each other that we really enjoy Our time alone and without that feeling Like a rejection and that's I think the Key thing is and sometimes if one
Partner is meditating a lot the other Person just feels shut out or rejected Or if one person wants alone time Um and it can be a screen for actually Not wanting to be together but mostly I Think it's a healthy impulse and that if Our culture respected Um connection more instead of Individualism we could survive we could Understand that we can stay connected Through the disconnection of being a Part and it's not that hard actually As long as the time doesn't go on too Long like for me two weeks is a great Amount of time after that no I don't know for Jack Maybe Um it just varies according to where we Are like I went through a really hard Year this year of losing uh my friends Katie J Scott and Gabriel starring the Humanitarians who started iact the Anti-genocide group that I've worked With um and gone to the refugee camp With and Uh my little brother died unexpectedly Right before we were supposed to go Visit and Um I had about with cancer I mean it's Just been a hard year and And so I think I've wanted more Closeness And more time alone both time alone to Be able to grieve And mourn like my brother I just seem to
Be so happy usually when I'm around Jack That I don't I just need time alone to feel other Kinds of feelings Um but I've also really needed and Appreciated his support Um this this year especially it's been a Hard year yeah and we stay in touch a Lot I mean even if we are apart a couple Of weeks and through covert we mostly Were together for a couple of years Hardly separated but going back now to a Previous pattern where we might be Together for a few weeks and then take a Week or two apart depending what we have To do we talk almost every day often a Couple times a day kind of check in What's your day and what's going on for You and it's not just it's funny because We talk about the practicality so I'm Like what did you do who do you say Whatever but really it's not about that It's actually about can we key sustain This loving connection Um and you can you know I yeah I went to The farmer's market and had great Tomatoes today I can imagine imagine the Tomatoes but you're the Tomato baby Or they're just Want to go Phone or just so even when we're apart Um That's great I remember Um it makes me think of how
Like how inspiring you both are and just Your ability to communicate really Openly about that too just be fearless And open about what you need and know You'll be accepted in that way I had my Own startle with sore in the beginning Of us was I had one day actually wasn't That long ago a few months ago when I Just woke up and was really rattled There was just a lot going on with my Kids and my family and just a variety of Work and other stresses and whether it Was through my body language or kind of Little bits and pieces sort and picked Up that I just needed a reset and she Asked me if I wanted the data myself and I said you know yes that would actually Be Amazing and he picked up and within 10 Minutes you were leaving to go visit Your family in Santa Cruz and I had this Terror like oh my gosh this is a Reactive is this a negative response did I just ask for something that created Discomfort I didn't because I had a Pattern of that in my past And you're so awesome you're like no no What I I receive and I hear you and I Support you and we do this and it was Such an enormous like huge relief to Have that kind of just you can say what You need and know that it's coming from The right place and just have open flow Of communication that way then after
Like a month you wanted me back yeah And I missed him right Um but I do think that's one of the Really interesting things to notice is How resentment starts to kind of come in Like let's say I was through that for That and there's just these little like Microaggressions like Little like digs underneath that's like A subtle put down which I hate seeing in Myself I really hate seeing myself but I Notice I can be disappointed or hurt and Instead of saying you know honey I'm Really hurt by that or something I'll Find some little way of commenting True That just kind of gives a little bit of A of a of a um Under the indirect yeah indirect poke And it's freaking hard and humbling to See but I do do that and that's been Something I've noticed because in the Past I'll always kind of and this is Maybe where the Buddhist training comes In not so helpful but like oh yeah I Just accept that but I really don't Accept that and then it kind of comes Out versus like yeah you know what that Really hurts and I hear you in that case I had totally it was great but there are All the other ones yeah there are cases Where I need to acknowledge that there's Some pain in the and then that then Doesn't create uh it doesn't create
Another energy force Rudy's been great about that because she Has this ability to let things go Um and you know part way into our Relationship Um that's at one point I asked her what She wanted and she said I want a husband She wanted to get married and of course She'd been single for 10 years you know And I was still kind of Licking my wounds I think in somewhere Not quite right I have to interrupt you It was Valentine's Day and you said what Do you want for Valentine's Day Oh it was really Charming you know but I I was like a deer in the headline I'm Not ready for that I just I just Suffered so much you know in this Divorce Um how and when did you decide to pop The question Jack was that well that so Then I I just had to sit with it you Know and reflect and meditate and you Know Work kind of inwardly to see well what Because I was definitely pulled back About that Um and then at some point I realized you Know I so love her one of the reasons I Didn't want to get married is because we Had such a good relationship and I Didn't want to ruin it but marriage Seemed like it was a bad idea because it Didn't turn out that well but I realized
No this is different this it doesn't Have to be that and so a few months Later I you know I said she was busy I Said would you like to go for uh A little outing let's go ride the ferris Wheel at Santa Monica Pier which I know She loves and we've done that a bunch of Times So we got on the ferris wheel and I said Can you stop it at the top I'm going to Propose to this one which they did they Were all excited I'm sure you know and Um but it took me a little while to work Through it in myself because I wasn't Ready Um yeah and now it's fabulous good Decision it was the right it was Absolutely the best thing so if you want To ask a question raise your hand I Don't know if we'll probably won't get To all the questions but there's um you Want to go under reactions as a way to Raise your hand there's one from the Chat uh that says what would you say are Some of the key features that must be Present to make a long lasting love Relationship possible so what if we'll Start with that one and we'll see well I Answered it I said um kindness and humor Those were the two main things Um I would also add know your trauma be Aware of your trauma Um right you know and I won't get into The societal trauma that we all carry
But be aware of your personal drama it's Really Um because that can get you in your in In its grip so that you really aren't in Charge of yourself but there are ways to Learn to work with that really Skillfully so I that's yeah beautiful Thank you Um so Harriet do you want to show oh Sorry Yeah Go ahead Jack did you want to say Ed Um I was gonna say something about need And expectation because I'd mentioned Earlier that I had a kind of neediness Early on which doesn't work that well in Long-term relationship and somehow Finding That you love being in the relationship And you're okay whatever happens in some Deep way in yourself with yourself that Actually allows you to have a healthy Relationship over time rather than that Rather getting into dependence or in my Case it was codependent I kept trying to Make this person happy and I thought That would make me happy it didn't work Beautiful thank you Um Harriet you uh I just want to say one Thing which is um it really Harriet just One second it really starts with your Relationship with yourself and that's I Think what Jack is talking about Um okay Harriet thank you
Let's see Harriet you should get a Little option to unmute yourself do you See that go ahead yeah hi there you are You're okay yeah thanks I'm a huge fan I Discovered um Jack online during my Insomnia period and you were a great Help over did I help put you to sleep Yeah A different person okay great yeah I'm Speaking from great Um my question is about professional uh Duality And what's happened just very brief Backstory my husband was a was was in The investment business for 30 years by Marriage we've been married for 40 years Pretty well 40 years And over the last 10 years has gone to His really great love which is um music And I'm a professional musician And it's a really interesting situation Working with a deeply charismatic Untrained person who draws people to him In a way that is fascinating and Fabulous but he's untrained and I from My point of view has sweated you know During the through the professional Thing I'm having kind of a difficult time Being generous about this and I really Want to be because I see huge Um benefits for the people with whom he Interacts and conducts and teaches and Yet
I kind of something bristles in me a Little bit about it which I know is Ungenerous and mean spirited but it's Reality at the moment and I'm trying to Kind of deal with it in in in the most Kind of practical and Acceptable way to myself and for our Relationship it hasn't ruined our Relationship it certainly hasn't but It's something I deal with and I just Wondered what you might say about that So it sounds like there's two parts one Is the Envy part and then the second is You're actually working with your Partner Yeah right yeah But you're so you're both professionally Involved and intimately involved okay That's right Yeah I'm taking a deep sigh because I Work with a very charismatic extremely Well untrained He's trained he's well framed he's well Trained in Dharma I'm better trained in Therapy honestly but he's not doing Therapy right now so you know we're Mostly teaching in Dharma context Um and Uh I know that icky feeling Harriet that Sort of icky like and it is it's it's Not exactly Envy Soren it's more like I've worked just in my case just as hard As you have in the same fields and yet I Was raising my daughter and I was a
Single mom working and I was blah blah Blah blah blah blah blah you know my Equivalent of the training that you've Had And everyone's just like eating out of Your hand it's no fair and Um I don't feel this often but when I do It is a very unpleasant feeling for sure And the way that um the way that I found To deal with it is to say okay first of All It's I I really frame it in the larger Society too that I've watched in myself I've turned more often if there's a man And a woman teaching together I Sometimes will give more authority to The man Um the just the training in patriarchy The training in Um in misogyny in making ourselves small So that we won't be threatening to a man I mean so many things about that helped Me understand that it is not a personal Issue Um Jack supports me in every way and Your husband adores you I'm sure but There it is so that's how it lands I Mean that's how it is for me I think there's truth in that definitely Yeah we just kind of are programmed in a Certain way but I'm really trying not to Be you know this is what I've learned in In in meditation of the last
Five years I guess is just to not fall Into those patterns and and it takes Time it you know you just don't Transform overnight and I guess I'm Getting better but not great well look At you're tearing this openly honestly Courageously in this public context so To me you've overcome your Shame about The feelings you're having and you're Just exploring how do I work with this It's that's beautiful yeah there's also In terms of holding it Um you might sense that it goes way back Because of what Trudy talked about the Culture and the enculturation and so Forth so there's this girl who's had These kind of feelings perhaps Um and that also can bring a kind of Self-compassion say oh yeah I I know how You feel you know looking at the big Kids or looking whatever or it's not Fair and and to hold that part of Yourself with real kindness and say it's Okay we have these that's of the Conditioning but actually I'm a lot Older than that now and I'm good we're Good yeah so there's other people with Their hands up Jack maybe Altering thank you thank you thank you And I just want to add I want to be Trained as a guy to be more attuned to That as well so uh we can all be more we Can all be supportive in that domain Yeah and you actually bring awareness to
This whole group which is awesome yeah So thank you period Um yeah Sarah sorry you're up next Before Oh yeah I think there's somebody that Was before me Jill a tiger face oh sorry Would they we pop up a little Differently we'll get you next okay Great um so my question is Um There are two things but I'll try to be Brief here Um I've been doing a lot of playing with Ho'oponopono over the years and 100 Self-responsibility and Um I get a little confused when The difference between like you know Someone just being a jerk or just being Mean or whatever and then me going into A place like did I create this okay What's in me that is showing up in the Situation or is this drawing this out And I start to feel bad about myself and I I am starting to understand that it Really is this and that world that I Live in at least and so I know that I'm I'm like okay so Is this person just this situation Because there's something in me that Feels bad about myself or feels insecure The Situation's just bringing that out By how this person is reacting or Talking to me or responding to me Um it's really not necessarily about
Them but it's like okay if this is Coming up in me I can deal with that and Just let them hold and own however They're being thank you I think we get I Think we get to feel thank you So Jack I was thinking maybe since There's lots of questions we could just Take turns instead of chiming in just Don't go for it well also you don't Um yeah it's better if I don't speak After you going back to that last Question it's very much better if you Don't trust that yeah So that's also what's on the table What's the training but um we're engaged In right now Um Yeah okay so I will I I will say Something Sarah which is that that Practice that you're describing is Really beautiful and your integrity and Taking it on I respect so much but I Don't feel that um that the roles or the Responsibilities and negativity are Equal sometimes somebody is just you Know being a jerk but then as a Therapist I know that that behavior on Their part was their way of surviving When they were little it's just that the Things we learned for our survival when We were little we really needed to learn Them because we were so small and Helpless and dependent on our caregivers Right those things translated into
Adulthood can be just so terrible Strategies you know Um so I can look at somebody's behavior And say you know that is bad behavior It's it's not something that I have Elicited through my own negativity you Know But I also understand that who I am has Resonated or triggered or you know been Something for them That is causing them to act this way Toward me if that makes sense it's not Something I have my own negativity Coming back at me so much as you know Maybe I look like Their mean mom or yeah I've I've dealt With that yeah yeah you remind me of Your mother I'm like great Thank you yeah yeah that's helpful yeah Thanks everybody thank you we can go to Gila Ila Um you'll need to unmute I wanted to ask You To make a longer story short and Circumstances of economic your child uh Culture family background and you Reached at the point that there is just No hope for the having a like a romantic Relationship like husband and wife I Just like to know explore it because I Really like this person I mean I like my Husband I do extremely really wonderful Sweet man and just to have a friend to To say let's just to let's just be
Friends is that possible to two person To leave after like almost 30 years to Be just friend Explore that the Romantic side of the Relationship kind of Um goes away the connection is there Yeah because of so many things At this time it's at this point and when I have actually I have decided it Doesn't really work so I would want to Know whether it's okay it doesn't work She's asking if it's okay To to not have that stay married and be Friends yeah yeah I think we got it Thank you thank you I'll just see a couple sentences I'd Like Trudy to answer some of it but Um first of all nobody can tell you What's okay and what's not except unless Somebody's hurting somebody else then That's not okay nobody can tell you that And marriage or relationship in that Sense is a kind of a dance literally Like Tango or whatever and you've agreed To dance together so you have to you Have to actually communicate from the Heart in whatever way you can and find Out what works or what doesn't and also Maybe look into why the romance is Falling away you said you have ideas and Things but but in some way it's a Question that only you and your husband Can answer Trudy what would you add
I would just add that you know we're Using the word romance but I think Sexuality is important in a relationship Um any relationship except maybe you Know a parent-child boss Um employee I'm not I'm talking about Love relationships between people Um and I know it just can vary Tremendously what people want and need In those dimensions and Um Learning to let somebody know how deeply Much you love them even though you Aren't really up for the other Part that at that time or I mean I just Think that's the most important thing to Lead with as you negotiate or try to Negotiate Um some new New ways of being in your marriage Um Just to start with the love and Appreciation you know really make that Because otherwise it's going to feel Rejecting Thank you yeah So I don't think we're going to get to All four of these questions Um we might be able to convince Jack and Trudy to come back later in the month We'll see if that happens but we'll just Get what we can uh Jesse I see you next Up uh you'll be asked to unmute did I Just jump in the game no you're good
Okay Uh let's see try again try again sorry How's that now you're good well thank You so much Um so I I'm in I'm experiencing Something new I'm living with a partner For the first time and that's a Wonderful relationship wonderful man who Really wants to go deep and and grow Together Um What I'm experiencing is in regard to a Moment of Emotion actually flowing through me so Let's say if if some sadness is rising And I it you know brings tears I'm I Realize it's I'm not used to having a Partner be around or witness that I'm Very comfortable with those emotions Coming up and then flowing through me It's a very powerful experience for me What I have witnessed in my partner is Sometimes that overwhelms him or he will Automatically assume seeing me crying Means there's something wrong where he Did something wrong or something about Our relationship is not right Um and I think I'm wondering what Sometimes it's hard to speak in the Moment I like to let the emotion just Express itself but what maybe kind of Conversation could I have with my Partner to help bring him into the power Of of that emotion expressing and maybe
Help ease his Worry that that had that means there's Something really off between us if that Makes sense Your questions got so much wisdom in it Already That you know what's going on in Yourself that it scares him in some way Or whatever his background he doesn't Know and that you want to figure out a Skillful way to talk about it and Include him already it's beautiful Trudy What would you uh add How to do it I would add that it's Uncomfortable to be known deeply Sometimes especially if you're used to Your relationship with yourself and to Let somebody witness your deepest Feelings and Um it can almost be scary even though There's no reason for it to be scary so I resonate with that I never was Comfortable when I was younger it was Very squirmy for me and but I think you Can be really simple and just say this Isn't about you Uh and just say that right off the bat Because Listen we all have our conditioning and When somebody that we love and depend on For our emotional well-being is upset That there's that I think everybody's Naturally catapulted to feeling very Small what did I do wrong or to lashing
Out Um There's lots of different styles of Being Um what's nice about your partners he's Not sort of reflexively trying to fix You and make things better all the time And can apparently tolerate your pain When you're in pain and that's a Beautiful quality so I'm happy for you And I don't know is this I guess this is Part of a series Soren but Series yeah So um I'd totally be happy to come back This is wonderful fun so we have a Series we have yeah the gottman's next Week and then we have another couple the Following week Um but we could we'll let we'll talk uh Jack and Judy and Cecily and I will talk But thank you and it would be wonderful To have more people I'm sorry we can't Get to everybody today we have a flight To catch too so we can't go over Um but uh this has been wonderful Jack And Trudy you guys are the best and uh You know it's interesting because I feel Your words but I also feel your presence And I'm sure other people do too like Your words are wonderful and Beautiful but the the way that you Engage and hear and show up is uh I Notice myself tuning in to that level Too so thank you for that yeah thank you Sure and then it's really been great
Watching you and Cecily over this last Year or more Um come together and make this beautiful Relationship which just you know makes Me smile so thank you Yeah and I hope you know Jesse Kim Jack I hope we'll have a chance uh to meet Another time we'll talk and see if we Can find another time and did you want Anything then no just thank you both so Much so we're gonna let everybody unmute And for the next 60 seconds let's send Blessings and thank yous and any in all Languages they're welcome I don't know What they say Kuwait uh or Um Thank you thank you thank you
